Subaru BRZ / Scion FR-S Thread

[NicholasJay]

I got a tip that a BRZ was going to be at Herb Gordon Subaru today, so I decided to go and take a peek. It was a Dark Gray Metallic with the Limited (higher spec) trim. I fondled the car for a good hour, and I bought it dinner afterwards.

Here's a link to the myriad of pictures I took of the car:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1070696586 ... 8fo3dif2AE

Video of exhaust note:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1070696586 ... 2193786754

My impressions: The interior looked really nice. The dashboard (excluding the IP hood) was made of a very soft plastic; it's even softer than my Golf's. The rest of the plastic was a bit harder, and the center console felt like the plastic console of the NC.

The shifter felt good in my hands. It has a short throw, and it nicely weighted and direct. The wheel tilts & telescopes, and the seat is adjustable in all kinds of ways. Still, with the seat in its driving position (for me), I wasn't really able to sit behind myself.

The rear seat is not split; it folds down as one piece. The front seats felt really nice, but the side bolsters were already showing the start of creasing in the leather. The view out the back was decent, and not nearly as bad as the other cars I've been sitting in recently.

Let me know if you need more info.

[Areddi]

Awesome pics and video, love getting good information.

[NicholasJay]

This guy is apparently 6'3"

[mj71]

This guy is apparently 6'3"

Headroom is much more dependent on torso length than total height.

[prostwest]

And butt thickness. I knew a heavy guy that was about five two- but was eye to eye with six footers when they were both sitting. Long torso, short legs, tall ass.

[NicholasJay]

My order has been placed. I have an email confirmation with my order number. I was first in line at Herb Gordon Subaru. I'm looking forward to test driving this car.

[bill_keksz]

Might need a diposable splitter, Grimmy.

[Areddi]

My order has been placed. I have an email confirmation with my order number. I was first in line at Herb Gordon Subaru. I'm looking forward to test driving this car.

That's awesome, I really think these things are gonna be cool, and I think the aftermarket will take off big time.

[91BRG]

Nick, are they asking for a dealer markup or full MSRP?

[Katya4me]

Interesting WSJ article about the BRZ: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 08538.html

[NicholasJay]

Nick, are they asking for a dealer markup or full MSRP?

The dealer I went with promised invoice + $800.


A bunch a reviews have been posted:

http://www.insideline.com/subaru/brz/20 ... video.html
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/dr ... index.html
http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/drive ... subaru-brz
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/cou ... irst_test/
http://www.autoweek.com/article/2012032 ... /120329931
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 08538.html

And for bench-racers:

Code: Select all

0-60 MPH: 6.4, 7.0 (7.3 w/out rollout)
1/4 mile: 14.9 @ 95.5, 15.3 @ 92.1
Slalom:   69.1
Skidpad:  0.92, 0.90


Also, reports are stating that the car will start shipping from Japan on April 20th.

[Areddi]

Can't wait to see(and hopefully drive) one in person

[skeeler]

I'm looking forward to seeing and driving the car, too. All the reviews make it sound like like a 4-seat, fixed-roof Miata.

[Aure]

Nick, do you plan on taking it to an autocross one of those days?

[NicholasJay]

Nick, do you plan on taking it to an autocross one of those days?

Absolutely! I am looking forward to the attention the car will get for the first couple of months.

Also, an (apparently) well respectd Subaru tuner called RaceComp Engineering got its hands on a Limited BRZ and they posted a driving review of it, along with some pictures of the car on RCE lowering springs. The entire review (and pictures) can be seen here: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4535

The review is absolutely glowing, but an interesting part was this:

2749 lbs with full tank, 2714 lbs with spare tire removed and 2650 lbs with 1/8 of a tank

And that's on the upper level trim that supposed to weigh 16lbs more than the base trim. Other autocross-centric reviews state that the exhaust looks pretty heavy and that a smaller one should be a lot lighter. Add in a LiOn battery, and you're well on the way to a sub 2600 lb autocrosser.

Skeeler, any idea on how much Zelda weighs?

[bill_keksz]

Funny, it doesn't look particularly lowered in those pics.
Still a bi puzzled by the Mustangish weight distribution.

[skeeler]

Funny, it doesn't look particularly lowered in those pics.
Still a bi puzzled by the Mustangish weight distribution.

The car is only lowered something like 20 mm.

Do you mean how it's 53% front? Although there's lots of talk about how far down and back the engine has been moved relative to an Imprezza, it's still sitting right on top of the front axle; since the boxer is so wide, it can't be moved much further back than that without interfering with the footwells. The other downside to the boxer (width) is that it essentially necessitates Mac struts in the front.

The upside to the boxer is an extremely low center of gravity. Apparently the center of the engine is a knee height. I'm very curious to see this car in person. That will give me a much better feel for its overall size and lowness.

[skeeler]

2749 lbs with full tank, 2714 lbs with spare tire removed and 2650 lbs with 1/8 of a tank

And that's on the upper level trim that supposed to weigh 16lbs more than the base trim. Other autocross-centric reviews state that the exhaust looks pretty heavy and that a smaller one should be a lot lighter. Add in a LiOn battery, and you're well on the way to a sub 2600 lb autocrosser.

Skeeler, any idea on how much Zelda weighs?

Those numbers are pretty consistant with Subaru's stated curb weight.

Zelda's right around 2400 with a full tank, I believe. I think she must have been below the published curb weight of 2511 in stock form.

[NicholasJay]

Those numbers are pretty consistant with Subaru's stated curb weight.

Zelda's right around 2400 with a full tank, I believe. I think she must have been below the published curb weight of 2511 in stock form.

I guess its a psychological threshold kind of thing to get it down to the next 2x00 lbs area. I'm glad to hear you've gotten Zelda down that far. As far as strict weight-saving maneuvers, what have you done? Off the top of my head I can only think of the exhaust and the new battery.

The upside to the boxer is an extremely low center of gravity. Apparently the center of the engine is a knee height. I'm very curious to see this car in person. That will give me a much better feel for its overall size and lowness.

I don't know if you saw these pics, but they help. The Miata pictured is on some sort of FCM setup. The 800 px width limit on the forum prevents me from displaying the pictures directly.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hp ... 7226_n.jpg]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hp ... 7660_n.jpg

[thebeerbaron]

Do you mean how it's 53% front? Although there's lots of talk about how far down and back the engine has been moved relative to an Imprezza, it's still sitting right on top of the front axle; since the boxer is so wide, it can't be moved much further back than that without interfering with the footwells. The other downside to the boxer (width) is that it essentially necessitates Mac struts in the front.

The upside to the boxer is an extremely low center of gravity. Apparently the center of the engine is a knee height. I'm very curious to see this car in person. That will give me a much better feel for its overall size and lowness.

Other downsides to the boxer include the fact that doing anything on the heads is nearly impossible with the engine in the car. Spark plugs and valve cover gaskets are fun. And changing a mile long timing belt is fun too. Four cams to hold in perfect sync! (Don't f it up, not only are the valves happy to hit the piston, they're happy to hit each other too!). And there are not one but two head gaskets!

The "extreme" lowness of the boxer is offset by the huge intake manifold that sits on top of it. On an NA car it's probably better than my top-mount intercooled boxer, but it's still a massive hunk of metal sitting up high. I think I measured it once and the boxer, with intake manifold, was at least as tall as my Miata engine.

Can you tell I'm not enamored with the boxer?

[mj71]

And changing a mile long timing belt is fun too.

No it's not. Not even a little bit. I can't tell you the number of times that right as I was almost complete, one cam would spin a single tooth.

[NicholasJay]

The FA20 (in the BRZ) and the FB20 (in the Impreza) are both chain driven.

[prostwest]

The "extreme" lowness of the boxer is offset by the huge intake manifold that sits on top of it. On an NA car it's probably better than my top-mount intercooled boxer, but it's still a massive hunk of metal sitting up high. I think I measured it once and the boxer, with intake manifold, was at least as tall as my Miata engine.

Yeah, but it's aluminum and composite tubing up there, as opposed to a block of cast iron with a few passages machined into it and two solid steel rods perched atop. It's like saying the Gossamer Condor must need as much takeoff power as a 727 because they have the same wingspan. I'd actually be very curious to find if there are any hard numbers on the center of mass of a Suboxer vs a typical I-4. Also, what about the length? Don't forget about polar moment of inertia.

[thebeerbaron]

The FA20 (in the BRZ) and the FB20 (in the Impreza) are both chain driven.

Didn't realize Subaru had anything except the EJ engines. Chain will be nice. Still not maintenance-free though

Yeah, but it's aluminum and composite tubing up there, as opposed to a block of cast iron with a few passages machined into it and two solid steel rods perched atop. It's like saying the Gossamer Condor must need as much takeoff power as a 727 because they have the same wingspan.

Not sure what the IM is made out of, but it's no lighter than a Miata head. I would expect the CG to be lower on the boxer, sure. But I doubt it's as far off as it's been made out to be.

I'd actually be very curious to find if there are any hard numbers on the center of mass of a Suboxer vs a typical I-4. Also, what about the length? Don't forget about polar moment of inertia.

As would I. It's a freakishly short engine, but in my application (not a BRZ/FR-S), it's miles in front of the front wheels. And as Skeeler points out, it's further back in the new thing. But not too far back, due to its odd shape. A fully piped engine is compact fore/aft, but substantial vertically and horizontally.

[skeeler]

I don't know if you saw these pics, but they help. The Miata pictured is on some sort of FCM setup. The 800 px width limit on the forum prevents me from displaying the pictures directly.

Thanks. I hadn't seen those, though I have seen some overlays with the NC, S2000, and so on. It really is small for a modern 2+2. Only a little bigger than an NC and smaller than an RX-8.

[skeeler]

I'd actually be very curious to find if there are any hard numbers on the center of mass of a Suboxer vs a typical I-4. Also, what about the length? Don't forget about polar moment of inertia.

Subaru/Toyota claim the CoG is 460 mm off the ground, which is lower than an NCs and, depending on what you read, comparable to or lower than a Boxster/Cayman or 458 Italia. I don't have numbers for those cars, though.

Yeah, low CoG is good, but, as I implied before, this is not a front-mid-engined car, like the NC.

[prostwest]

I'm more More interested in the powertrains, not the overall car with all the complicating factors.

WRX intake 22-dressed intake manifold with wiring/tb

Miata head 44.6 pounds on a Weight Watchers digital scale, including the camshafts and sprockets

Just playing devil's advocate, you know me.

I do see that the length issue is complex- if you make an engine shorter, but then have to push all its mass to forward of the mid-line of an I-4, you've actually made the polar moment worse.

[bill_keksz]

I saw a supposedly measured 56.5/ 43.5%. I think Ford advertises 55/45 for the Boss 302; not quite the same beast, admittedly. 53/47 is one thing, 56/44 is another. Miatas have pretty much been at 52/48 since conception.

Ref:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4287

I'm pretty sure the Toybaru intake manifold is plastic.

Near as I can tell suspension is from the Imprezza parts bin. Lack of adjustability, LSD & nose bias makes me think they're aiming for drifting rather than AX as the intended motorsport.
But adjustable parts can be added, although such tweaks require a bit more thought and work than, say, merely firming up an NC's suspension.

I'm still interested in the car, just would want some real feedback, and a test drive, before putting any money in.

[NicholasJay]

Yeah, low CoG is good, but, as I implied before, this is not a front-mid-engined car, like the NC.

Here's a pic to illustrate. The engine is close to being all behind the front axle, but not quite.

[thebeerbaron]

Just playing devil's advocate, you know me.

Whereas I'm just looking for flaws... Works good.

Didn't realize the difference in weights was so big. It must have been a while since I lugged my spare Miata head around.

That engine is pretty darn far back. Definitely wouldn't want to service it though!